What!, isn't it absurd?

"Again and again in the Pentateuch, the psalms, the prophets, and the subsequent writings ... the claim is made that the creator of the entire universe has chosen to live uniquely on a small ridge called Mount Zion, near the eastern edge of the ...Judean hill-country. The sheer absurdity of this claim, from the standpoint of any other worldview (not least that of Enlightenment philosophy), is staggering." --N T Wright

What! isn't it absurd?
Israel knew God doesn't dwell in a building made by human hand, but a temple was built (then rebuilt 2 times) to establish a sacraficial system, based on Mosaic law, emphasising an issue called sin, issue of cleansing, issue of reconcilliation.

The temple ground features in prophesy - it will be trampled under gentile feet after Herods temple is destroyed until messiah returns.

Sure God made the universe, but does this preclude a representative peg in the ground as ground zero for special (holy) place?

People love to write off Israel, but the hatred is beyond anything like 'normal', and the character & philosophy of those who lead the hate shout to me Israel is somehow hugely significant... grossly disobedient , yes; hard hearted yes, but God has deliberately made it so for the gentiles sake, and to repeat, God made them miss messiah for gentiles sake, HE has not written them off... so no stone throwing coming from here. ( insert book of Romans here!)

God planned, promised, made an oath the promises will stand, cannot lie so it is permanent, but covenants have changed, but a new one made in the body and blood of the Son of God has done what no other covenant could do, bring permanent, lasting reconcilliation between God and men through the blood of the eternal covenant.

Orthodoxy v Love

I loved Roger's comment in another thread about people stong on 'orthodoxy' often associated with lacking 'love'. I agree and would express it this way: being a christian (christ person) is a state of "Being" someone that BOTH understands Christ and does the works God has for us.
I see too many behaving like gnostics who delve into the secret knowledge of the wisdom of God, read and read and read but this neglects engaging with non believers, or simply those who need our help.
Others may fall the other way and do many mighty works without having a clue of the person and work of Christ but uphold him as their God.
Now we could debate whether the person who has 'saving' knowledge but neglects good work is any more obedient than the kind and generous to others who don't understand a dictionary full of religious terms!. I propose they both are missing a whole lot... I see understanding, and acting on that understanding, completes us in christ and what we are here to encourage each other to do.

Questions please

A loud skeptic on radio here declared some time ago a scene where he was brought up in preachers home, asked as a child, questions about God, then summarily being clipped over the ear by grandma who said the kid shouldn't ask such questions and he's had a huge chip on his shoulder ever since.

I love questions, they are what takes simple ho-hum statements we take for granted in the Bible into vital life giving, refreshing truths. I've taken on a saying: There is no quest without a question.
Having the right question has spurred me into all sorts of reading and reflective thought and MAJOR revelations!
Now there is such a thing a wrong question..but another day.

Carefully choose the rut your life will follow.

Carefully choose the rut in the beginning of your trip on the road of life.
Ruts will take you where ever they will, some are rough and weathered, some smooth, sometimes they are so deep you can't see that its taking you the wrong way, and if you can see, it is usually difficult to change ruts!!

Modern Parable? 2 Natures simultaneously?

A modern parable:

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.
He said: 'My son, the battle is between 'two wolves' inside us all.
One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.
The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.'
The grandson thought about it for a minute, and then asked his grandfather: 'Which wolf wins?'
The old Cherokee simply replied: 'The one you feed.'


I find this analogy cute but I always try and compare new ideas to the framework I already have, the person of Christ and the work of the Cross to see if it portrays the change that comes with the ministry of the spirit.

This analogy would be good if there were two natures in you simultaneously. This is the Romans Chapter 7 dilemma about two natures fighting over right and wrong, one side beating up on the other side, but Chapter 8 breaks out in raptures of joy because the conflict is resolved "in Christ". The conundrum is broken when you consider the flesh is dead on the cross! and the Spirit in you is now alive.

Without Christ there is two voices telling you to do good AND to do bad. This is consistent with the bible teaching about sin: "and they ate from the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil" People now know how to do both and know how to mix the two up as if they were the same. Even worse, if people can distinguish the two they are not certain to uphold the good over the bad for a lot of reasons.

The "in Christ" teaching of Romans 8 breaks the deadlock, by saying that the ministry of the Spirit changes a persons heart and they will WANT to conform to the good, no struggle, no hoops, no compliance rating, its a transformation on what you are, it is a transformation of what you do.

How you think affects how you feel, affects how you see things and affects what you do and affects what you say.

The Christian is one who sees in Jesus, nailed to the cross, as their own death, His burial, their burial. A sinner benefits from this death when they say "rightly that should have been me". this change of heart: from pride to submission means EVERYTHING to God and all Heaven rejoices.

The transition is completed by the resurrection. Christ's first then yours through baptism. Baptism embodies this teaching. Christs death and resurrection is YOUR death and resurrection in the waters of Baptism.

The creature that is born again is TOTALLY different to the one with the old heart and desires.The heart that has been through the 'change' now in the "Spirit" now desires the kind, loving, helpful etc

When you know that the spirit of living God now dwells in you, your mind dwells on how to do the things of the spirit.

Those who vascilate have not actually laid down their life, don't see their sin, do not see the Holiness of God, don't see their forgiveness. Those who know they are FORGIVEN much will LOVE much. LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING.

Living by the spirit will immediately find a disconnect with the world and its ways. Opening your mouth to establish Gods position will prevent the problem of doing evil. As soon as you open your mouth you will instantly have those who will watch you, especially if you trip up or fall. Any compromise on your part will neutralise your word's power.

I think it would be fruitful to investigate the issue of "vascillation"....a new post soon.

Brandon, quite a few issues here.
1. Borderline Athiest. Been there done that.
Here's pastor Ray Comforts talking to people on the street and they are all borderline athiests, he's got over 100 clips here, they are almost all the same so pick at random a few, you will get the point: http://www.youtube.com/user/thewayofthemaster

You will find that unless you see sin well and truly lives in you and lies, theft, hate are not imaginary sins but as Jesus said, the same as slapping someones face, plunging a knife into someones chest as so on then you are dealing with imaginary problems, and learning about Jesus is just an academic pursuit, your heart is not engaged and its an interesting stroll through history. It will be like looking through a display cabinet. When you see you personally are as guilty as a murderer in the local court house you fall into the display case and fall into the mud, blood, sweat and tears of history. If you have no sense of a mightly big amount of forgiveness you don't have a picture at all of what sin is in your life, or the Holy nature of God and these two things are totally incompatible. I talk about this in my blog: http://thecrosschangeseverything.blogspot.com.

2. Nice athiests: yes and no.
You will find what you are looking for.
If you are looking for sporty types, academics, campers, yo-yo players they are all out there pursing their interest.
If you want to find activists, every politian, unionist, conservationist are all out there fighting a cause.
If you are looking for action you'll find rednecks, clansmen, anti immigration supremecists denouncing in violent terms what they hate...
,,then you overlook plenty of other atheistic pursuits of politcial power with Magabe, Pol Pot (don't wear glasses), Stalin, Hilter, Edi Amin, Communists today, mobsters of all sorts, Mexican drug lords etc. Japan non relgious pursuit of supremecy involved 20 million chinese lives. Athiests are not your local bicycle riding Mormon, saying "have a great day".

Yes there are huge problems in religion but 20th century athiests had a (killing) field day...and theres no reason for them to change...except people momentarily recoil in horror from it...forget who in history has the supremacy and superiority complexes....but still blame religion for everything...their arrogance is astounding.

3. America at war. Imagine a bikie gang moved into your street. They didn't care about causing property damage to your place, rode bikes everywhere all hours. They threw empty and full bottles of beer into your backyard where kids played. If you confront them they threaten your life, and smash your car windows to make the point. Men with real power (guns, helicopters, lockups) and authority( law) are needed to "ARREST" the problem, so then magistrates can review the behaviour against the law's requirement, then MUST execute JUSTICE. Imagine the judge is also intimidated (like italian ones by mobsters, or Muslim judges by clerics) and let people off with a stern finger shake. Law makers must be independent from police (How many movies portray police officeres as the mayors private army) who must be independent from judicary who must be separate from prison authorities for justice to be done (how many times Thai jails "accidently" let criminals get away! money!). In non parlimentary monarchies, the King is over all of these and justice is what ever the king said. With the passage of kings people saw this as unsatifactory. In islam the clerics are the same, people say its unfair but they have no way of changing it.

4. Communists and Al Qaida do not share your squeemishness for blood and death. They are no different to the Hells angels or mobster. NOw of course "there is honour among theives"...they take care of those in their circle..when you do what they say! There is the problem with them. Their rule of law is do what you are told or you are eliminated. That is the opposite of free, open society that the founding fathers said comes from democracy!!! CHOOSE one or the other but you cannot have both! Justice is a MAJOR theme in the bible so christians have a strong sense of fair play (and all kindergarten kids) and everyone else gets confused.

In Korea the US had ALL of the North -MacCarther wanted to keep going into the new communist state of china - the nationalists didn't fight Japan because they saw the communist rise as far worse - but politics said pull back. Think of how many millions upon millions have suffered in North Korea and it is still the most oppressive place on earth? In Vietnam the US army lost 1000 men getting to Khe Sanh (Spelling?) in the Tet Offensive and saw the communists in retreat (in one place they found 3000 civilians slaughtered by the communists ...the villagers probably disagreed with "going with the communist flow"!!!) but politics gave in to public pressure to not fight in other countries, unless US interests are at stake...now people insult the Gov't again because they then ONLY get involved when oil security (which keeps all your commerce and people moving) is at stake. Bill Clinton cried he should have done something for Rwanda...but they were crocodile tears.. I suspect a Republican after Vietnam ..could never contemplate intervening in genocide...unless of course there is some American presence or commerce involved.) Christian politicans ask should we get involved when we see mobsters taking over a free and open countryOR sit and watch it happen? Imagine the police station across the street who had the ability to intervene voted to see if they should stop a biker gang in your backyard.
5. A Roman soldier 'did not bear a sword in vain': is Paul talking in Roman christians about them supporting Government (even the evil Roman one that eventually executed Paul/ Peter / others? except John). When a police officer (or centurion) pulls his weapon, he is not Deacon Joe at church, he IS the LAW. If he backs down to evil, evil has no squeemishness and it will kill him, and anyone else who gets in the way. Evil has to be either STOPPED 'dead' or 'arrested'. If a police officer is in doubt that something is wrong he should just 'arrest' the situation and let the court decide. He is not a judge or executioner. ..but people get hurt and die in this process. In christian government these are serious questions.

I think the general rule of thumb is: the opponent is the one who decides the rules of engagement. If they raise a stick the police can only oppose in kind. If they are shooting, then police shoot back, you don't shoot someone waving a stick. If they raise an army, you meet them with an army. Its not complicated and ONLY CHRISTIAN government who 'care' about the people they arrest. They cannot be beaten, tortured, starved...thats why theres all the fuss when it becomes known if there is mistreatment or outsourcing information gathering by one muslim group againt the type of muslim you have (taking advantage of their mutual hatred, or money abrogates their supposes brotherhood...fluid principles common place everywhere)...this concern all comes from a christian view that says all men have value (even mass murderers), must be arrested, must be judged fairly, treated humanely...all because of the christian believe mens hearts can be changed before death makes their bad decisions permanent. Communism in china does not share this belief, they have no rational reason whatsoever to believe or NEED to believe this this and execute so many of their prisoners.

6. This comes to the question what happens when 1 million armed al keida supporters say they need to be in control. It is beyond any country's police force and most people's army. A point comes when you say men make their decisions and if they are ready to die for them, there is no guilt in them getting their wish!!!! If someone is willing to take your life and you get the upper hand and they die instead, you are not a murderer, you have defended yourself. This is the afghanistan problem. OF COURSE grass root christians care and are in NGO's land private mission activity doing what can be done for humanity.

Jesus said let him who lives by the sword die by the sword. Its a really simple rule. SO if a cleric who coordinates terrorism is targeted and killed, he gets what he creates. ..also called reap what you sow. If someone joins the US army/marines and dies, the president is not guilty of killing. If you join an army you need to be prepared to be counter attacked. That is why we HONOUR our soldiers because they have died so WE LIVE. Beware of people who do not even come close to thinking about these rules or think to apply JUSTICE, just avoid conflict when aggressors don't care about such things.

Beware of people using Christian arguement: men have value; don't take human life; show love when 1. they have an ideology that in no way demands this 2. is used against stopping mob like rule.

Also realise that muslims are the ones who fear al kieda most, 2 million muslims won't go back to Bagdad (sunni are hated by shia) and 2 million muslims from Swot valley Pakistan wont go back while taliban are there. Thats 4 million muslims to start with who don't like what islam can be. So any talk of NOT fighting taliban wont come from muslims, it will be athiests who haven't got a clue. Its like saying keeping christmas decorations out of site not to offend new multicultural society but muslim countries ( they are your newest big foreign group) observe christmas and easter and Hindus and Budhist who have been there for along time have never made a noise of offence....its only athiests who hate Jesus and make alot of noise, because anything to do with God or Jesus is by definition to be rejected outright. They will tolerate certain things but only to get position and influence and then it must go.



7. Gay relationships: I could write at length again...summary:
1. the presure is to the church to santify what God doesn't sanction - actually forbids. Clerics who do are like the prophet Balaam who was pressured to curse Israel. He knew he couldn't do what God expressely did not sanction, but he found a way to weaken israel using foreign woman who led Jewish men into idolatory.

2. There are three terms I think clarifies relationships:

Humiliate
Lust
Love

Humiliate: is to deprive someone of any value, they have no recourse, cannot be tolerated and must be oppressed. I suggest you read sharia to get a 'feel' for what humiliation can involve. Disagreeing with someone is different to humiliation.

Lust: this is an appetite that can never be satisfied. It wants and wants more. It can never say it has had enough. This applies to food and water, or any fleshly desire. The cravings never stop. Jesus offered water that you drink and never thirst again (the spirit). His flesh is true food (manna) from heaven. The cravings can make people do anything without concern for right or wrong, they'd sell their birth right for a bowl of soup, betray their grandmother to keep their freedom. The bible uses the term "Lust of the flesh". The two words belong together and again is sooo related to "sin" so unlike "spirit". Flesh and spirit are not friends, completely contrary. Lust ties flesh to "this world" and is lost without this world. Lust is TOTALLY "me" centric. This is the opposite of the spirit. Sexual pleasure is welllll and truly in this place. The only way to eat, drink, have sex is to santify it and that is done through the way God sanctions: prayer (you cannot gorge or binge drink and be thankful at the same time -thats rediculous) and marriage ...and this is why anteists who don't have any reason to believe in marriage what it to be a valid marriage option, it appears "sanctified" / must be respected. Its like the legal changes that are coming through the UN we must only ever respect islam, NEVER criticise it ...its almost shocking.

Love: this is the one major theme of the New Testament. WIthout it Jesus 4 laws dont exist (1. love God; 2. love neighbour as self; 3. love your enemy; these 3 are from the old testament; 4. love oneanother as christ loved: only 'new' command); forgiveness on judgement day is TOTALLY contingent of each individual forgiving their offenders (impossible without teaching of love). Love is about respect, where people express mutual respect / value to each other. NO ONE teaches this in ANY RELIGION EVER ...judaism comes close but they still could never pronounce to someone that God loves them, they have many preconditions to be complied with for that to be true, and laws that must be administered precisely to maintain that standing. In fact Christian teaching is that there is NO MORE MOSAIC LAW FULL STOP, those who trust in Christ only have the PRECEPT of LOVE to guide ALL their decisions, love fulfills all the requirements of the Law. A person who loves AUTOMATICALLY does not lie, cheat, steal, lust, slander, and the list goes on...it called fruit..the outworking of having God live in you. No hoops to jump, you gladly speak of the God who now dwells in and with you. Theres a thousand more virtues here.....

LUST ..... LOVE ......HUMILIATION Love is a mutually separate paradym- a humilator needs to dominiate so CANNOT love; a luster is self centred and cannot love. This then shows you what Jesus was like. He could never look at a woman with lust because love looks to the needs and value of the other person, not self. Imagine someone who cannot be selfish. What a great personality that would be...you'd always want to be with them, forever!!.The trinity is always about lifting up the other party, the Son Glorifies the Father , the Father glorifies , the Spirit honors the Son, the son honors the spirit .....love always focused on the value of others. Lust thinks only of itself. Humiliation is glorifying self by pushing others down...like every bully in every schoolyard gets to feel better about themselves by making everyone else feel like crap...what a way to promote self!! BUT LOVE CHANGES EVERYTHING.

BEWARE OF IMITATIONS. THEY WILL MISLEAD YOU. (Imitations are those teachings and philosophies that do not have LOVE as their No.1,2,3,4 PRECEPTs, what it begins with and ends in, and the method of going between ... most things called "religion" and especially EVERYTHING that denouces "Christ" as GOD in Flesh who SAVES all who put their confidence in HIM alone)

8. You didn't mention HELL. Your athiests friends are most ferocious about a cruel God having a Hell.
What should happen to pedophiles, mass murders, Hilter, Stalin...should there be Hell for these people if there is a Heaven or should everyone go there?

Most agree there should be a hell for evil people, but grandma who hated Jesus?

Well I would ask them: when a judge sentences a criminal to life in gaol, or to death, or 20 years do you curse the judge, spit on him, curse him? Do you visit the murder in gaol every week for the term of his life, comfort him, hear his concerns? Christians do. Christian belief in ALL humans having value leads them to comfort all who are in gaol for what ever reason, child rape, mass murder anything. This is love in action and athiests cannot and have no reason to do it, other than some personal family memeber if they haven't fallen away due to public riducule that they are related to someone who doesn't follow the cultural "norm". .having relatives in gaol can be humiliating so forget them and let them rot!

Why should a person go out of their way, express genuine love or concern who will never get out of gaol again, or for for a long time? Because God declares all sinners valued, they only need to say sorry to God for what they are and done and change their ways, until then we care for them. Atheism has no grounds for their outrage that a Holy God having a forever plan for evil, when on earth they don't care an ounce about earthly judges commiting someone to death or gaol forever and ever and ever. They are totally inconsistent and it is a totally spurious claim. It only reveals their hate for God, not friendly neutral ground. Jesus says there is no neutral ground. Can you imagine two groups who are at war because (as usual) one party only has decided it is going to dominate the other. It doesnt matter what role the opponent takes up, whether a command sargeant or camp cook they are the enemy. God takes no delight in anyone denouncing His authority, but Jesus said when people reject His words they have judged him as a liar, unworthy. People decide their future, with God or without...people want to blame God but it is themselves that decides! You are standing in Gods courtroom right now, any word you speak FOR HIM from a changed heart of Love is your court testimony to the Judge you belong to him and Jesus will mediate to the Father that you are one of His, but the sting is the moment you open your mouth in this court evil men will begin to spit on you, hurl insults and try and prevent you opening your mouth. You will then see clearly that there are people who have a different path in life, some will stop and listen to you but many who won't. It happens in 52 countries now, any time you openly proclaim the name of Jesus, and especially as the Son of God who brings to into fellowship with the Father and will be silenced, fined, gaoled (many a fine prison minstry started this way) or executed (plenty of pure hearted people buried/burnt in Iran/China / Saudi Arabia et al) and this is going to keep happening until the "RIGHT NUMBER OF MARTYRS" are achieved and that will be rap up time here on earth. There are no accidents with God, who dies or when, the ONLY question is: Will you be faithful to the end, loving not your life even to death, just like jesus was faithful even death, death on a cross. A servant is NOT GREATER than his master. The master showed us how to live the life of righteousness. This is not academic. This is going on in the earth right now, for 2000 years infact: first at the hand of Jews to the end of the first century, then the Roman empire to the early 300's; then the HOLY Roman empire persecuted Jewish (Nazarene) and non submissive fellowships across the empire; then under Huns and Khans and Islam, more of Rome, then Kings of England resulting in non conformists and other groups finding a new land America to allow freedom of conscience, now turned feral as athiests turn freedom on itself to devour America. ...not academic at all. Many have been in the struggle and the insults and spitting continues.

God a has a plan for you. ...